 CAN YOU HELP? [Advice... a problem with another 4N member.] |
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 11:51
We did some work for another 4N member (Still an active member of 4N and was a Marketing assistant for group that no longer exists), after quoting and signing both a letter of engagement and a payment schedule. We started the work asking for a deposit of 30%, part of our normal terms for work over £1000, and giving an invoice for that on the same day the letter and schedule were signed.
Expecting this payment (deposit) and being encouraged to start asap, we had started the work (re-branding, website concept and structure plan).
This deposit never materialised.
We chased, chased and chased. Getting promise of payment every-time and nothing appearing. At this point we stopped doing any more work saying that until this is payed nothing continues.
Promises of payment still came, but no money.
At 90 days overdue we said that if the person wanted the work done then all the money would be required up front before we continue.
Nothing.
We passed the chasing of this outstanding invoice to a credit controller (Another 4N member - Alison Wiltshire from Bizpro - Super Woman!) who has done her best but now was told by the client that the business no longer exists.
One thing that makes me unlikely to believe the client is that the existing website is still up, has been slightly updated (text and images) and I just can't believe that they have stopped like this - I think it is just an excuse.
The amount is just over £1000.00 and in my opinion I don't believe it is worth chasing through a small claims court. The time out to prepare, attend and the chance of loosing (unlikely but a possibility) just isn't worth £1000 to me. I also don't want to cripple someone if it were true and they are struggling in business, but want to help as much as possible. A CCJ on their credit file will not help at all for future business practices.
I want to warn people about doing things for this person but don't want to do it in a bad way - hence not mentioning them by name - How do you warn people of non paying clients in the most ethical way?
Any suggestions on how to play this now? I feel like just writing the whole thing off - a lot of money for a small business but if it needs done to wash my hands then fine.
Ant Hodges
CEO & Technical Director
T: 01793 600769
make your marketing better
www.creativerush.co.uk
Branding Swindon
Graphic Design Swindon
Copywriting Swindon
Web Design Swindon
PR Swindon
Exhibition Design Swindon
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 11:57
It sounds like a tricky one, but to be honest I wouldnt have done anything prior to receiving the deposit. If you want to recover the money I suggest www.moneyclaim.gov.uk<cite>
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 12:02
I think the fact that this person is 4N doesnt change the course of action over much, although it grates that we would do this to each other!
Try to arrange a face to face negotiation first (apologies if you have already dont this). Should they be un cooperative, you have a simple choice - pursue or not. If yes, there are some excellent debt chasers here with a good track record of collecting
 Paul Norman
Gibside Associates - a different approach
www.gibside.co.uk
Management Training - Seminars - Internal Branding - Change Management
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 12:05
Ant a similar thing was posted here a short while ago and there was mixed response to the question of non-payment and the eventual naming of the person/company.
I for one would always like to know when a company has not paid a valid bill because that will protect my company and it's staff. I would say that before naming them you should have exhausted all avenues and be absolutely sure that it's not just a case of a genuine business failure.
Like you we have sometimes started work before a deposit but accept that it's our risk. It's sometimes difficult to balance what is expected via the network in terms of service and trust and what you should have as an always follow policy.
Having said all that we recently had a customer who did not pay their deposit for 4 or 5 months and then surprising paid up and progressed with the project...
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 12:15
send them a pm to this thread Ant.
Now if the business has gone under, its gone under. Just because they are a 4Ner isn't relevant. A deposit is a deposit, if you ploughed on ahead of a deposit. Thats your bad. Although i've done the same and got burnt equally.
Whatever comes from this, one positive thing is you've learned a lesson from it.
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 12:41
Sorry to hear about this Ant. As you know I am half Italian and have lots of Family in Italy who are connected, so if you would like this matter sorted fast and without any annoying paperwork just give me the nod ;)
JOKE!
My point of view is that this person has deliberately decepted you and wasted your time, plus there is a chance that they could do the same thing to others. You are being very generous in saying that you do not want to chase them or cripple their business. However you maybe allowing them to cripple somebody elses. If they came to me and got past my credit checks cause you hadn't pursued the matter then we will more than likely get stung. Also there is the point that it may be the wake up call that this person needs to put their business/life practices in order. It also sends a strong message to future clients that your services are professional and not to be taken lightly as you have strong credit and debt management processes in place.
Sorry for the essay fella.....got very strong views on this subject.
Dom Rosato (Managing Director)
Flat fee recruitment that works, Guaranteed!
Telephone: 01793 441 459 Email: dom.rosato@employerfirst.co.uk
WWW.EMPLOYERFIRST.CO.UK
(Marlborough 4N Group Leader)
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 14:40
I see this from the other side.
In a previous life, I ran a print business (a limited company), which due to major cashflow led me to having to close. This unfortunetely left a large amount of debt owed by the company. I dont want to go into full detail here, but there were people I had built up a relationship with (as that is who I like to trade with).
Despite the fact that I am still struggling now, and I have had to go back to employment to make ends meet (sort of), after 5-6 years of running my own business, I am one of these people who dont like owing people money.
I therefore fully intend to still pay people that my limited company owed, despite the fact that there is no obligation to do so.
I believe that if you deal with honest people that you get to know (through networking), then they would want to personally pay. I totally believe in working with people you know, so that you do build up a trust base. Networking, and getting to know who you are dealing with does make things more personal.
On the note of starting work before deposit received, if this is your normal terms, then you are taking a risk - which you assess based on your relationship with your customer. It is a risk! I, myself, have been stung as well! So now I am talking from both sides of the fence.
I hope that this rambling makes sense!?!
Gareth Nicholas
Comunications Consultant
Eurotel Ltd
T: +44 (0)7977 120011
E-mail: garethnicholas@eurotel.com
Website: www.eurotel.com
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 16:42
If he is bust write it off.
If he is being deceitful go for the jugular.
As a bit of light relief here is a story at my expense that you might find amusing.
Living in London in the 1980's I was having a property renovated in Somerset on stage payments. Couldn't inspect but told by a friend that a payment was due only to come to the property and find a large hole where the new French windows should have been.
Eventually got judgement and an attachment of earnings order at £10 a week, received the first payment then the guy died of a heart attack - one way of avoiding debt!
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Posted on 28th Aug 2008 at 21:07
Being a 4N member is no guarantee of honesty, integrity or trust. That can only ever be built up from experience. It would be nice world, indeed, if all 10,000 members were totally trustworthy, but there will always be some who let you down. At least 4N gives us a chance to meet and get to know people before we do business, so it improves the odds considerably of doing good business.
A Hotel for Business or Pleasure (but better for BOTH!)
01404 831278
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Posted on 29th Aug 2008 at 08:54
Hello Ant - You have to confront the customer for your money - judging on their replies make a decision to pursue or forget - From experience with a un-named business, they were asked several times then a debt collection company asked then, i decided to ruin their credit rating and bang a CCJ on them - this cost about £75 and before they were served we recived our funds in full - took ages mind, but we got our money
This sounds very nasty but in business "do to them what they would do to you"
This also sounds nasty "their are no friends in business that is if you want to remain in business"
Please read the above as sound advice, don't take them seriously and you will be soon working for somebody else
 "PRESS ME" Listen to what 1st Parcel Direct can do for your business!
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Posted on 29th Aug 2008 at 13:36
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Posted on 29th Aug 2008 at 13:57
Hi Ant,
I run a Credit Control and Debt Recovery company and would like to help.
I would like to know if you have done any credit searches on this company? If not, maybe I could do a search for you?
Industry statistics state that 85% of debtors will pay within 7 days if contacted by a third party. I'm not saying that I can guarantee your client will pay but you don't have anything to lose by trying.
Why not give me a call for a chat off line?
Claire Freer
The Bateman and Freer Partnership
www.batemanandfreer.com
07787 148610
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Posted on 29th Aug 2008 at 14:24
Hi Ant, I've had a similar experience on a smaller scale with a 4N member but I learned that they were having some difficulties and couldn't afford to pay rather than were trying to get away with it, so have let it slide as an 'ethical' way of handling it. If it was a real sting as seems to be the case with you, then I'd have no hesitation in naming and shaming so that everybody knows who it is. The culprit can then defend themself if they choose to. Without naming, how does anybody know to avoid getting caught themselves. I wouldn't be too happy to do work for somebody and then be stung and find out later that other 4Ners knew they were rogues but didn't say anything. There's no real ethics involved in these things. How many 4Ners would have been fleeced by Mark the Photographer or VistaPrint if it wasn't for naming and shaming them on 4N posts I wonder.
John Thorne
M2S Media : Making the Media Work for You
Based in Rural Somerset - Reaching the World
Email john@m2smedia.co.uk Web www.m2smedia.co.uk
Affordable and flexible PR, media, and communications support for SMEs, charities, NGOs, local government, and others.
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Posted on 29th Aug 2008 at 14:27
Ant - Should have said also that it's probably a mistake to have posted like you have in this thread, as the rogue 4Ner is likely to read it and will now know they've gotten away with it because you aren't going to pursue them.
John Thorne
M2S Media : Making the Media Work for You
Based in Rural Somerset - Reaching the World
Email john@m2smedia.co.uk Web www.m2smedia.co.uk
Affordable and flexible PR, media, and communications support for SMEs, charities, NGOs, local government, and others.
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Posted on 29th Aug 2008 at 15:07
Quote: [John]
[SNIP] How many 4Ners would have been fleeced by Mark the Photographer or VistaPrint if it wasn't for naming and shaming them on 4N posts I wonder.
John just to veer slightly off topic I get the impression VistaPrint are not in the habit of fleecing people. There is a positive reply to your Vistaprint posting and I've also used them myself in ther past with no problems and super quick service. The issue appears to be their rewards program not the printing service per se.
Not wanting to trivialise Ant's issue, my personal view is I think we need to be very careful before naming and shaming other 4N members or indeed any other business on here until all the facts are known.
The growth of blogs and forums means reputation management is now a key issue for companies and they're often finding bad reviews or "shoot first ask questions later" postings on forums are popping up on page 1 of Google as this search for Nationwide Autocentres shows. See search result #3. I used this company yesterday for an MoT and the service was excellent.
I don't know about you but I'd be mortified if I made some sort of unintentional error or overlooked an invoice and found an adverse comment about my business on Google. (Again Ant I am not trying to trivialise your predicament).
/ back on topic. Awaits opening of floodgates ;-)
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